What do we do in situations of confrontation and disagreement? How do we reconcile with the people we love after a disagreement? In this Q&A, Rev. Jacky Gatliff shares why relationships matter more than being right.

To frame this conversation, this is about in-person discussions and disagreements with friends and family. This does not reference conflicts that take place online/social media. Although points could be applied, this does not explicitly reference disagreements with strangers either.

Host: To start, I want to ask a very broad question: Why do we disagree?

Rev. Jacky Gatliff: Well, there's not just one answer to that. There are dozens, if not millions, of reasons that we disagree. It can be because of what we bring to the conversation at that moment or what our life experiences have been. We may have a difference of intellectual or educational background. A lot of it, though, I think that we find is it's often a personal preference, you know, that we have a leaning towards one way of looking at things. It's our worldview and how that's been developed. But you know, I think personal preference just plays the number one thing that all the other reasons kind of play into it. 

I think the main reason we disagree is that we don't take the time, effort, and genuine emotional energy it takes to connect and communicate. There's a lot of work that goes into that. They say they don't want to chit-chat; they want to have meaningful conversations. But those are work. 

When I think of the word disagreement, I think of the word defense. So that's one of the first words that comes to my mind is. So what you're saying is that a lot of this is just a defense of what we believe and hold true?

Well, if you look at the definition of disagreement, which I did, it just says "a difference of opinion." I thought, 'Oh, that is just a shallow definition,' because disagreement plays into all of who we are, our emotions, our intellect, and it can play into us physically. When you've disagreed with your fabulous wife, it affects you physically, and it does with my husband. We just take it in. It's more than just a difference of opinion. When we think, we just disagree on what we believe is the topic, but there's always more underneath than what we're looking at. 

So how do we find out what is underneath that level? How do we get there?

Two things, I think. First, I'm going to want to talk about being a Christ-follower, and what that means is we have the Holy Spirit in us. We are known by God, which means that we can learn more about who we are. To get at it, we have to understand what are our intentions and our heart motivations? Where are our leanings? And when we are in that, we can step out of that because that's a secure place for us. 

And then be curious, that's going to be the word. I'm always thinking that way. I want to be curious about what is it about this person that gives them the reason or why are they looking at things that way? I need to understand it because usually, the disagreement is not just the presenting thing. It's what's behind it, and that's where we typically don't go. We're not willing to say, "Okay, this is going to take some time and energy to figure that out." 

But usually, what the presenting thing is, it's not the thing. It's what's underneath it.

When I think about conversations with friends and family, I realize that those relationships are often the ones that can be the most volatile, in the sense that I know them best. I know what triggers them. So how do we practice caution knowing that we may step into those volatile conversations with friends and family? For instance, I know what triggers my wife, so when we're in a disagreement, I'm probably going to push that button intentionally.

Oh, yeah, the old button pushing? Part of it is the way we approach people. Are we looking for wins? Are we looking for who has the power at the moment? You know, like, "well, she doesn't get it, so, therefore, I have more information than she does." So you're kind of saying, "Well, I know more than she does; therefore, I have more power in the relationship." That isn't who you want to be, particularly as a follower of Jesus, and He never did that with people.

I also think with close relationships that there's typically a place where we think we might be safe in this person. We believe they're not going to walk out on us. We can unload or engage in this conversation because we think that person probably isn't going to leave us. This isn't always true because they can emotionally check out in many ways.

Why can I have disagreements with my husband that I would not ever think of even engaging with someone else? Well, it's because I'm in a covenant relationship with him. So there's going to be something in there that is going to be shaping me in in that disagreement. 

When I think about relationships, I think about hard conversations. Hard conversations get you somewhere. They're never fun. They're never comfortable, but that's where you grow in your relationships. So how much value is there to having these disagreements in a relationship?

Well, it depends on how much you want to have a relationship with any substance and meaning? There's a line that I learned a long time ago that growth always takes place in the context of conflict. If you understand that, then it's not just an argument or a disagreement; there's something about me that I'm going to learn in this, and the other person too. 

Often what we're dealing with, though, especially in our culture now, is that's not what people are interested in. They're not interested in the growth, and they're just interested in being right. So if we know what development is, there's always something for me to be learning. 

I had a situation with my husband last night where I didn't understand something. He said, "Well, what about this?" I couldn't help but be like, "Oh, wow, I never thought of it that way." So there's that value of being in a relationship with those we are close with and willing to hear what they're saying. The need to be ready to say, 'Okay, this is the opportunity to be growing." 

Talking about hearing what they're saying, I think about James 1:19. He says to be slow to anger, quick to listen. When we talk about the value of listening and having a conversation, that's not always our first instinct. Can you talk about that?

James was right. Be slow to speak and quick to listen because there's always something that we're not understanding, and I have to assume that I'm not entirely understanding. I put my filters on people. You know, that there's just always a phrase that should be quick to come off our tongue, and that is just to say, "Tell me more." Then listen.

Again, it's that curiosity thing, getting down from one layer and going lower, lower tip to the heart of who that person is. But you know, just being heard. 

I know you experienced this with your wife. How often has she said to you, "I just want to tell you this." You were quick to listen, but then you also want to be quick to fix it. She didn't want you to fix it. I don't want my husband to fix it. I just want him to hear it because then I feel valued as a person. We know that it can't be fixed when we're saying something, but it just needs to be heard. When I'm heard, that's when I'm feeling loved, and I'm seen.

I think about when I've vehemently disagreed with someone. Typically this comes from discussing politics or religion, and I'm pretty steadfast in my opinion. This other person is probably going to be equally firm in their opinion. How do we come into those especially hot topics like knowing people will be steadfast in their opinion? How do we take a step back and listen to what they're saying?  

I go back to what are we hoping for in the relationship? Are we hoping to understand where they are politically or why they are or not wearing masks? That's not the issue. That may be the presenting thing, but what it is, is people are looking for connection. From the day we're born, we're all looking for the things we've discussed. We want to be seen. We want to be soothed. We need to be fed and taken care of. But we also need to feel safe. When you're feeling safe and feel that you're receiving comfort, you can be confident. 

If you're if you are in a relationship with somebody, and you're around that table discussing hot button issues, it's essential to ask, "Am I seeing and hearing them? Am I presenting myself in such a way that I am allowing them to see me?" You talked about the defense thing earlier, and sometimes that wall is just so high. So now you're looking at your body language, tone of voice and ask yourself if you are approachable so that you can be seen.

I've been in the safety thing. That's usually where we get stopped. We don't do well with seeing and hearing. We need to have those conversations as if we're feeling safe and where they can be confident that what will be said, don't we? Whoa, 

We need to position ourselves so our response won't be harsh, as a dismissive one. That's often what we do with people when we disagree with them. So I'll just say, "They're an idiot." I mean, we're either saying it or thinking it, right? And we know what Jesus said about what's in our heart, so if we're even considering it, then we're already on the wrong track. 

If I want to create a safe space, and if I am a Christ-follower, then I can make that safe space. There's nothing that's going to happen to me. I'm not going to lose anything if I'm creating a place where they can feel safe. Because the question isn't whether they're, you know, wearing the mask, vaccinated or not. That's not the topic. What you're going for in these situations is you're looking for connection. That's what we long for more than anything. We don't long for getting you on board with my politics. We're not looking for that; we're looking for a connection that all those other things provide, which then leads us to feel secure. 

I'm kind of getting distracted thinking about the conversations I've had before that were harsh, or I walked away; either I really did that, or I did that internally. The important thing is that we have a conversation. I think we don't want to have those conversations because we're afraid people will turn and walk away. But if we have a connection or difficult conversation for 30-minutes, then we are farther along in that relationship because we had the conversation than if we didn't.

The goal isn't to win. The goal is connection. The other person doesn't have to be thinking a certain way. We have to ask ourselves, what's driving you? When we answer that, that's going to drive the posture that will change the relationship. "Okay, we disagree, but we were connected in that, and I wasn't made to feel like an idiot." 

That's what Jesus did with people. He would say hard things, and He would engage with them. But He never called anyone an idiot. He just didn't. He revealed something, and then it was up to them what to do with it. But He never pulled back His love from them. He didn't walk away from them. You know, there's nobody that we've said. "Jesus turned on His heels and walked away from me." If anything, Jesus came further into the relationship, which God does with us all the time. Moment by moment, He's coming after us. God is entering into us when we are the ones that are being crazy, and that's what we're doing in these conversations by pursuing that person. Nt the topic, not the presenting point, but the pursuit of the person.

We like to insulate ourselves with comfort and the people that we love. So when we disagree with friends and family, I think the worry is that we're losing that person from our bubble. That this person no longer agrees with us, therefore we're losing the relationship. Do you think that's a genuine concern? 

Oh, I think it's a legitimate concern, but that is what we believe. I think we need to change what our perspective and what our hope is in that relationship. I'm thinking of family members that I know where they stand on a topic, but they also know where I stand too. I want to be gathering around them. I want to be enjoying who they are because that's not the essence of who they are. Where they are politically, or any of those things, that's not who they are. We want to be the people going after the heart of who they are and revealing that. If we disagree with them, it's is okay because that's not the sum of who they are. Even if they think it's the number one thing, we have to be able to look at them and say, "That's just a small part of who you are, and it's not the essence of who you are."

We get to pursue them in such a way that it was a great thing to be able to disagree with somebody. Then at the end of the conversation, we're still in a different place, and we still care for one another. We haven't written each other off. 

I mean, that's what we have, right now, isn't it? We've got the cancel culture and the Twitter mobs. People are thrown away in horrific ways, but we can't cancel culture the person sitting in front of us. We just can't do it.

I think that's one of the big things today is we devalue disagreements because disagreements create diversity. We had never reached a compromise when we all agreed. We come together with our disagreements. Each person has an agenda, history, and perspective that is of value. Together, those parts are greater than the sum of our views. That's when we get something more remarkable when we come together through disagreements. I want to hear your opinion on the value of diversity in differences. Is it a good thing?

I love that question. You know, after a while, when we are just with people who look like us, think like us, speak like us, same education, all that stuff becomes boring. In some ways, we may think it's safe. We feel like we can control it. We know what to expect. But if I'm going to be living in this world and see where God's Kingdom is going, it does not look like my little world. God's Kingdom is much greater, and there will be people there that I'm just disagreeing with right now. I often think, one day, I'm going to be around that wedding feast table in heaven, and all this stuff isn't going to matter. It just isn't. 

I need those voices, though. I need people who have different backgrounds and experiences than me. That's what helps me understand my world. So I need to hear what this friend is saying to me, and you know, it takes work. 

You know, when I think about friends that I love who African Americans, who are looking at the world differently are, I realize how much they've enriched my life because their experience has been so different than mine. I need to know that because that is showing me how God is moving in the world. That's where I want to be. I wouldn't be where God's already moving. He's not just in my little world. He's in all kinds of different places.

How do we have those hard conversations when we know a friend or family member has not had the same experiences we've had, or maybe they're coming from a place of poor logic? How do we handle those kinds of conversations? 

It's a hard one. Sometimes it what is the point in having the conversation is? I mean, realistically, what will bring any growth from going into that kind of conversation? You know? My job is not to help someone think correctly. My interest has always been much more what's going on in their soul. 

Often when they're disagreeing, or we think the logic is wrong, when we start thinking about what's beneath, what's going on, what's going on there. I mean, particularly the last, you know, 20 months, have we ever known more anxiety? More fear? And that's everybody. I mean, we're just in that unique period where everybody's in the same place, in terms of having experienced stuff that they never did before. 

I think a lot of times, is that what I want to identify in the relationship? Was that "Oh, I got him to think clearly on that." You know, because, how do we know whether it's precisely clear, anyway? But did I listen? Did I address and try to understand their fear? That's why I want to connect with somebody on their fear. Not so much on whatever crazy thing, I think they might be thinking. That's not going to change it. The heart issue is the fear and anxiety, and that's where I want to connect with them.

Your answer brought up two questions in my mind. The first one is, how do we know if it is even worth stepping into this conversation? If we're sitting at a big family dinner, and several members are having a conversation, we just really disagree with what they're saying. How do we know when to step in?

I think it's that self-check that we have to do with ourselves and say, "What is the value-added in doing that?" Is it going to be just adding fuel to the fire? Do I want to waste this moment where I want that connection with family members? I know specific family members that I disagree with. But you know what? That's not where I'm going to be meeting them in the area. 

If we're secure in who we are, if we experience that Jesus sees us and that we're safe and secure in who we are in Christ, then we can bring the light, the joy, and the love into the situation that somebody else doesn't have. So as Christ-followers, that's what we're bringing. We're bringing in peace, we're bringing in light, we're bringing in love, we're bringing in joy. 

Change the flow of the conversation. "What a great season to be talking about football." You know, "Who's going to be hired for that coach that was just fired?" But we have to watch ourselves and identify what our motivation is. Is it to have a win? No, my, my motivation is I want to stay connected and have a good relationship with family members, even though we're 180 degrees apart. 

If we have a history together as a family and we have to ask ourselves what legacy that we want to pass on? Do we want to be passing on to our children that when we were together as a family, it was emotionally volatile, scary, and dangerous to be there? No! We're going to be around the table together and were in conversation together. 

We all probably have situations where we have bad memories of holidays because someone said something that somebody took off in that direction. Then it was all over. That isn't who we want to be. I like the phrase: "Are there that many things in our culture, topics, politics that I will fall on the sword for?" Do you know what I mean?

Let me tell you where that question comes from. It was 2019, I believe, and I was listening to a roundtable discussion about race relations and where our country is. Someone asked the question, "How do I know when to step into a conversation when we're discussing race and someone has stepped over the line?" 

Yeah, okay. I get that. Again, I think there's a way to turn the conversation to bring your heart and perspective into it. You can say, "It's tough for me to hear you talk that way because that hasn't been my experience." I think that if we say that honestly, that we own our emotions. 

But I'm with you on that. If they are kind of going in on something like that, I think we can say, "I need you not to say that because that just is, that's harsh." We can do that with fellow believers. It's harder when people aren't believers, though. But I don't think that should stop us. 

On the other end of that, when is the time to walk away from the conversation? Is it when we see there's no longer value being added? Like we've said, that's the relationship. Are we walking away from the relationship by doing that?

I think we need to be aware of how we do that internally. Can I walk away from you right now and know what the cost is? Are any of these conversations worth destroying a relationship? They're just not. That's where we can be able to be guided. When they say this, that means it's the end of that, but if there's anything that is not honoring to God, that is not true, then that is destructive to somebody else. That's when we say, this is where we are, and we have to agree to disagree because my connection with you is more important to me than one of us being right. 

Let me ask you this. I've had conversations where it ended with let's agree to disagree. Do we mean that when we say that? If I'm honest, I still think about that disagreement when I talk to those people. I hold on to that, so is agreeing to disagree an accurate statement? 

Well, you'd have to answer that one. Is it a phrase just to end a conversation? 

Is it just a cop-out at the end of the day?

It could be, but now I think in some ways, it can be communicated, honestly. Are we saying that we value who they are? While we disagree with them, but we value them more than the disagreement. We have to reach a place to agree that we're in different areas about this, but I value you more. I value our relationship more, so thank you for what you did say, but I want to think about that. 

We're all able to bring new things, new perspectives, but I know what you're saying. Sometimes when we say that, it means to be quiet. It can be just a cut-off. We have to see if there's a way to communicate that within the context of maintaining a relationship. I think that's what we always have to be communicating. Whatever you've said, whatever you believe, does not mean that I am just throwing you away. We don't want to be thrown away. Whoever we're talking with, they need to know we are theirs, and there's nothing that could be said that we're going just to throw them away. 

Relationships are always dynamic. They're constantly changing. Our culture changes all the time, Politics are changing all the time. We have particular perspectives, but the context is often what we're talking about. We get caught up in the context of the topic rather than the foundation of it. I think that the foundation of it is always what I can do to keep this relationship intact? As my brother and sister in Christ or as a family member. Can I walk away with that person, not so much that I've heard, but that person feels that I heard them.

I want to go back to something you said earlier about. When we do step into a conversation, and we are correct. There are no bones about it; we are factually accurate. So how do we not gloat in that? How do we not feel too much pride in setting someone straight?

I feel like you're revealing more of who you are. 

[Laughs] Maybe so.

Hey, I'm going to win. Remember, we're always walking into these things humbly. It's not a battle. You know, it's a person that you know. We are all prideful people, and it's part of the nature of who we are. 

I'm thinking about the conversation I had with my husband last night. I cut him off, but I did it from the standpoint that he pointed out something to me, and he was right. I realized I didn't need to talk about it anymore. I got it. But he wanted to keep going. I was like, "No, no, no, I heard you. I get it." I'm not sure if he walked away gloating, but he did say, "Okay, she just didn't see that I showed her this." And I was willing to learn. 

I think it has to be two ways. If we are walking away thinking about what made a great point, we're not in a good place. But we weren't the only ones to make a good point, so did they. So even if we disagree with the context of what they're saying, they made a point to me about understanding who they are. I can love someone a whole lot better if I understand who they are.

In disagreements, we're failing to remember that these are also children of God. We forget that every single one of us is made in God's image, regardless of our faith and where we are in life. I think we're failing to remember that when we disagree. Can you talk about that? 

Oh, yeah, we always need to be reminding ourselves that we are in conversation with someone who is an image-bearer of God. We've lost that understanding. All that means is they are also people who Jesus died for who yet in their life are ways that we may not understand. I think it's true, even with believers and nonbelievers, that God is always involved in each of our lives, whether we're following Him or not. So we have to be curious enough to say, "Okay, what could God be dealing with this person right now?"

We need to remember that God is moving towards us, as He is moving towards them too. He moves towards us with patience, kindness, mercy, goodness, and love. Why would I not do that with somebody else? If we remember those things, then we can run-up to the edge but avoid stepping over the edge because we realize it. 

I found this. I love this. This is an excellent translation of 1 Corinthians 13. It talks about how we engage with each other. But, unfortunately, I think we only hear it at wedding ceremonies. But even at weddings, we go, "Oh, isn't that nice?" 

We need to remember that 1 Corinthians was written to a body of believers, telling them what's expected of them. Love is the driving force, and nothing else matters other than expressing love. So let me read this translation, beginning with verse four. 

"For love is large and incredibly patient. Love is gentle and consistently kind to all. Love does not brag about one's achievements nor inflate its importance. Love does not traffic in shame and disrespect nor selfishly seek its honor. Love is not easily irritated or quick to take offense. Love is a safe place of shelter, for it never stops believing the best for others. Love never takes failures as defeat, for it never gives up." (1 Corinthians 13:4-7, The Passion Translation)

There are so many great phrases in there. But, you know, love is not easily irritated. Isn't that what we are? The culture of irritation or quick to take offense? We take offense so quickly, but love is a place of shelter, And isn't that what I want to be doing with my presence? In a one-on-one conversation, around a table, or some kind of group meeting, I want to be a safe place. And I can be because of the Holy Spirit in me, and the love is just moving through me. 

But that's what you're talking about, moving towards someone who's a child of God. If I'm a child of God, that's what I'm doing. I remember that love is more significant than any of these conversations that we're having. It covers a multitude of sins. You know, Paul was very quick on that. So we need to remember that, yes, these conversations can be legitimate, they can be an irritation, but love is more significant than all of those things.

What happens when the conversation goes sour, and that relationship may be deteriorated because of the conversation? How do we reconcile that relationship?

Oh, you know, we are so slow to ask forgiveness, aren't we? "I want to ask forgiveness if I have offended you in any way." Now that you're saying that, it's like, "I'm not asking forgiveness if you know I said something wrong."

We are the ones that need to take the lead on asking forgiveness. When my kids were growing up, they never just said I'm sorry, because that's a quick throwaway line. Forgiveness involves more of who I am. Even if I'm saying that, I think that communicates my commitment to not turning on my heels or walking away. Instead, I'm moving towards you with love. I want reconciliation, so will you forgive me?

Now, what their response is, isn't your responsibility, but that catches people. 

Changing gears just a little bit, but what is our place as a mediator as a Christian? What if we're at that family dinner again, and our uncle and grandfather are going at it? We're sitting there trying to eat our turkey and cornbread; what's our place to step in?

It's hard to talk about specifics. If you're in between, you know, these two men who are going at it, I mean, there's just got to be a way of kind of bringing it back home to where we are. There will be a lot of wasted dinner table conversations this season—a lot. 

As Christ-followers, we don't want to be a part of those; we want to ask how did Jesus handle those things? Jesus was always at the table with people. Somehow he would address the concerns and move on to the person. So I would say be obvious about what you're doing; don't be subtle. Say, "Hey, you know, you know, are the Lions even going to win that football game today? Probably not." Sometimes if they won't let up, then there's not a whole lot you can do. You're not responsible for them. You're responsible for yourself.

I'm thinking of an intergenerational table. Kids are watching closely right now as to how adults have responded these last 20 months. Our responsibility is to somehow still move in love without dismissing them. 

These situations can make people feel they've been dismissed and shut down. Instead, ask them if they can talk about this after the pumpkin pie. Then you can dig into the underlying fear and anxiety. How do you connect with them? There's always so much history around the table that some things we know about, some things we don't. So at that moment, what are we doing? We're gathering together, and we're seeking that connection.

No one likes confrontation. It's never fun. Some people are better at handling it than others. But like we've said, it's a relationship, and challenging conversations grow our relationships. So what's your encouragement to people not to avoid having these conversations when they come up?

That's a great question. I think you keep short accounts on those conversations." You and I don't see things the same way, and I want to hear that a little bit." 

No one runs headfirst into conflict, but when we reframe conflict as something that will be our point of growth, that can lead to something more profound and more life-giving, I think we don't have to shy away from it.

We can't be going in for the win. That's not what we're aiming for. We're aiming for the heart and connection with the person we conflict with. My marriage and my relationship with my kids always compromise because we are all broken, wounded people. We need to recognize that and that it's okay that we disagree. The goal is not necessarily to agree. The goal is to love and treat the other as the image-bearer of God that they are.

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About Christ Church Memphis
Christ Church Memphis is church in East Memphis, Tennessee. For more than 65 years, Christ Church has served the Memphis community. Every weekend, there are multiple worship opportunities including traditional, contemporary and blended services.